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Thomas More

Lucy,

"Happily" I offer the notion that, for Jefferson and his contemporaries, I believe the "pursuit of Happiness" was a defined concept. It referred in previous generations not to the Oprahfication (a Thomas More term) of our society or materialism.

Instead, the "pursuit of Happiness" was the pursuit of personal virtue.

As development of the virtues is the development of character, this leads us to hope. Rom. 5:3-5.

That character, however, comes from SUFFERING, not HAPPINESS--which would seem backwards to our society.

So, what's my point? I guess that you've confirmed my thinking on two American thinkers: Jefferson > Oprah

Joyfully,

T. More

Didymus

Lucy,
Well said.
I wonder if you could help me clear something up on this topic?
What do you do with Hebrews 12? Jesus endured the cross, despising the shame...why? For the joy set before him?
Was he pursuing his own happiness here? If not, what is the difference between pursuing joy and pursuing happiness?
Thanks,
Happily,
Didymus

zabelle

Good questions..happiness versus joy. Didymus asks about Jesus and was there joy really set before him...I'm paraphrasing here, but how happy could he have been hanging there in agony, in shame? good question. But I'm thinking that his whole being, his whole reason for having lived is coming to fruition, and his death and ascension will bring eternal life to billions of people in the future...He may not be pursuing personal happiness, but I'm hoping he had some big joy in that!?

Jay Cline

This is such a glorious start for exploration.

I would like to comment on Thomas More's comment about character coming from suffering. I believe that the forge of suffering indeed can test and temper (or break?!) character, but I am not sure that suffering creates character.

Anyway, my best wishes to the journey!

Thomas More

Mr. Cline,

Thanks for your comment. I didn't mean to say that suffering is the only place character comes from, but it is an important place.

I note that "character" means the combination of qualities (virtues) that distinguish one person from another, the person's "combined moral structure" (Amer. Heritage Dictionary.) It comes from a word that means "to inscribe."

I think the inscription of suffering can be deep. I am not sure happiness leaves such a mark. Suffering forces us to turn to something other than our circumstances. Happiness allows us to wallow in self. Not that being happy iis bad, it isn't. It's just that it isn't as powerful a time in shaping or testing character. The "true you" isn't revealed there.

I think the chain that allows us to rejoice in tribulation from Romans 5 is not just for the religious minded, but for everyone. Something about suffering leads us to latch onto something that is bigger, other, than ourselves. When one links his hope to something beyond himself--and this is where Lucy's nod to obedience is spot on, I think--he is freed to make virtuous decisions, rather than selfish ones.

Counterintuitively, these selfless decisions, if properly grounded in something "other" than self, tend to make the person "happier" than the selfish ones.

With character as one's personal balance of the virtues: Love, Faith, Hope, Prudence, Justice, Fortitude, and Termperance, think how suffering can increase each of these. As it increases or at least shapes each virtue, it thus "creates" your character.

Again, that is not the only thing. There could certainly be contrary forces reducing your, say, temperance. Thus, your overall character would change to be less temperate.

And suffering could test and temper your character, as you say. It is proven character in Romans 5, thus it is character that has made it through the blast and come out in tact, or even stronger. But this experience itself creates character. Think of a shaped clay pot going through the kiln. It comes out the same size and shape, but is now strong and usable. So, what has made the pot, the work on the wheel, or the time in the fire? Both I think.

All the best,

Thomas More

PS Thanks for joining us here, we look forward to your continued comments!

Didymus

Lucy,
You really struck a chord here! Two friends have commented, in person, about your post...still hoping to hear from them here as well.

I have a post brewing that may address something very close to what we are talking about here. The question I'm asking is "Is the good thing and right thing never/always/sometimes the same thing." read..."good" for me and "right" morally. My gut tells me, in God's economy they are always the same thing and that our discussion of happiness is tainted not by too strong of an appeal for it but too weak. I'm reminded of Lewis's, "we are far too easily pleased" passage in
"The Weight of Glory."

Didymus

lucy pevensie

First, thanks to Thomas More for clearing up the founding fathers' intent. That's refreshing to know. I'll rely on my fellow posters to help fill in the gaps in my history knowledge.

Didymus, you also make a great point about Hebrews 12. It's interesting how Jesus was focusing on the joy to come as He endured his suffering. Even with joy on the horizon, I still don't think He was happy at the moment on the cross (or even leading up to it, note the intense agony in the Garden.)

This discussion is a bit tricky, partly because of semantics. I suppose I'm defining happiness as a self-centered pursuit (what do I want to do; what is good for me; or as my friend loves to joke, "What about MY needs?") I think that is primarily the world's view of happiness (meeting MY needs). Jesus' example to us is the farthest thing in the world from that self-centered focus.

Didymus

Agreed Lucy.

No doubt Jesus "endured the Cross, despising the shame"...he wasn't "happy" about the details, yet of all the options available to him, isn't it safe to say that Jesus took the option that in the end would make him happiest?

Or would he be better off, had he listened to Lucifer?

This is the question isn't it? Not, should we want to be happy, but , how do we get there? Oprah is wrong, we don't deserve to be happy...yet we were made for it.

The world and tragically much of the Church has hijacked happiness...this ground is too precious to concede, let's reclaim/restore the idea to where God's glory and our happiness are one.

Didymus

lucy pevensie

Yes, Didymus. Long-term happiness should be our goal. Jesus, in the end, received joy AND happiness. And through our obedience to Christ, we achieve JOY in the short-term and happiness too in Heaven in the long term. But in the short-term, following God's plan isn't necessarily the feel-good path.
L-

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